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Downright Sickening

What is even more sickening is that much of the world press is ignoring this reality behind the gory pictures [as Lotus82 pointed out yesterday]:

A public link:


I couldn't say this any better so I won't try.


( 4 comments — Leave a comment )
Jan. 15th, 2009 09:25 am (UTC)
Hmmm... no.

I understand the frustration but everyone needs to realise that EVERYONE involved is human.

Degrading and devaluaing the tears and anguish of someone else puts you on pretty low moral ground, no matter what they have done to you.
Jan. 15th, 2009 02:41 pm (UTC)
Well... yes. EVERYONE involved is human. Hamas needs to recognize that they are on low moral ground by using their own children as human shields. I just don't see the Israeli citizenry doing that, ever. I also don't see terrorists as ever recognizing anything about morality, either.

Today the Israeli Embassy in the US released a report from the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center of the Israeli Intelligence and Heritage Commemoration Center. The title is "Hamas Exploitation of Civilians as Human Shields."

It has pictures of this. Taken by Arabic and Hamas photographers. Kids being encouraged to crowd around terrorist riflemen and rocketeers AS THEY ATTACK IN COMBAT. Published by Arabic and Hamas sources. They are proud of it.

I don't find any "degrading and devaluing the tears and anguish." I see very short lives being sacrificed for political reasons.

Limelime, I guess I don't understand the frustration at all the way you do... and I lived in the middle of it for the better part of a month, and I guess I would have to lose a loved one to terrorism to understand it deeply in my heart. I think the Israeli foreign minister, Tzipi Livni, said it best in very few words: "We must make it clear that in striking at Hamas, Israel is carrying out the interests of the free world against the extremist camp."

I don't want any kids killed anywhere, or put anywhere near harm's way: not in Holland, not in Australia, not in Sderot and Ashkelon and not the refugee camps where my friends live in the West Bank, and not in Gaza either.

But, if you live under a theology that cheapens and devalues life --- like you don't and I don't --- then this is what happens.

If you think one goal of terrorism is to keep people alive for awhile and terrified out of their wits, to the point of being paralyzed with insecurity, you're right. So I think people who plan these goals are not human at all. Or maybe the right word is civilized.

Nobody should have to live like that. Nobody of -any- age.

Of course if "what they have done to you" is kill you, then you won't be able to value or devalue anything any more.

So I respectfully suggest you might want to re-think what you're saying about "no matter what they have done..."
Jan. 22nd, 2009 05:31 am (UTC)
I was referring to the other persons journal entry that you posted - and yes, facetious remarks about "pretty pictures for tv" and mocking references to "shedding tears in front of camera" (ie: crocodile tears, the mothers etc don't REALLY care about their dead children, just want to put on a show!) ARE, like it or not, degrading and devaluing the suffering of palestinian people.

And you say that you couldn't have put it any better, so I assume you must think this of the palestinians as well? Do correct me, i think i know you better than this.

Flippantly denying the other side's legitimate claim to tears and genuine grief and suffering is NOT any way forward - it is a dehumanising and evil attitude.

And i respectfully re-assert my belief that it is an inappropriate response NO MATTER what someone has done to you. I have had family member killed - this does not mean that the person responsible was not human, or not worthy of human emotions - it means that there was something seriously flawed about him, and there is soemthign flawed in the very nature of people and society, soemthing that we have to work on together. The ability to take life (and have moral meaning behind it, not just an animal instict) is an essentially HUMAN capacity.

I'm aware of the human sheild situation - It's pretty common knowledge. And i do not agree with it.

But do not believe that the violence and the phosphorous used by the Israeli army amounts to delf defence. Slef defence must legally be action that is of equal or proportionate force - this has not been the case. Israel has systematic power (not to mention weapons and training etc) that Hamas can never match - and they are NOT utlising them appropriately. They are in this case, in my opinion, an opressor lashing out against a disempowered population who even THEY insist have nothing to do with the war.

The majority of people living in gaza are children - they DID NOT vote for Haamas, have not had an opportunity to live in peace and safty, and they are suffering the consequences of Isreals inefficency and indisciminancy.

How can an army like that, with their kind of international support and assistance and training fuck up SO BADLY?! Kill all these people - and NO it is not just the 'sheild' issue that has led to civilian deaths it is also via the DIRECT actions of the israeli army.I KNOW people in the IDF, and even to them i say what the fuck?

Perhaps we don't agree because i in general dont agree with your 'interests of the free world' ideology - i believe that there is a significantly imperialist and neocolonialist component to the US (and Australia's) 'war on terror' and our actiona in th emiddle east, not to mention developing nations in asia and africa.
Jan. 22nd, 2009 12:49 pm (UTC)
I think every child has a right to go to sleep in a secure bed and have happy dreams and not have the roof over her head suddenly blown off or the floor under it obliterated.

And the government whose control she sleeps under needs to make sure of her security because she's not powerful enough to.

And I don't care if that's an Arabic slogan painted on the side of the incoming rocket or a Star of David.

Time and again the government of Israel has said that their fight is not with the Palestinian people but against the terrorist government of Hamas that is "enslaving" them, and Hamas is far from being the entire government of Palestine, as well.

The central problem is that entire generations have grown up since Israel's War of Independence in 1948, and they have grown up radicalized, and that's the real tragedy no matter which boundary line you live on one side of or on the other side of. As far as I know, the national policy of Israel has -never- been to obliterate anyone who does not believe as they do. The "national" policy of Palestine, and beyond the borders of the Occupied Territories as well, is to force all the Israelis into the sea and drown them. You can add Iran to that, these days. In my view this has caused Israel to adopt a stance of aggressive defense. Out of necessity, for a very long time.

I don't find any logic in how that's done, any more than you do, Limelime. If the Israelis abhor Hamas missiles being fired at random and blowing up their schools and people and causing PTSD among their kids, are they supposed to fire missiles back [from aircraft or artillery] and blow up Palestinian kids?

The only way I see to fix this is to remove the desire to kill and the fear of being killed. How to do that is something of a mystery to me. Israel has announced a policy of wanting to bring about a two-state solution where they can live next to the Palestinians and both can be "good neighbors". Nobody fires anything at anybody. What's wrong with that?

For one thing, Hamas completely rejects it. As a government.

I see the DIRECT actions of the IDF as resulting in killing Hamas terrorists who are government officials planning the attacks on Israel. I don't know how your mind would change [if at all] if one day a group in Western Australia started firing missiles at random toward you, or if somebody in Amsterdam did the same thing toward me in den Haag.

Unlike you, I've never lost a family member as you have, so I can't say if I'd agree with your view on this or not. But I think that we have laws to protect the kind of security I'm talking about, and laws demand accountability from the people who violate them. And I would much rather my rights and freedoms be protected by laws instead of being placed in the hands of men who might want to chop my head off at a whim [and the last time I looked, it's terrorists who want to do the chopping.]

I can't comment on imperialist and neocolonialist trends because I'm not sufficiently knowledgable about them, but I think these traditions don't apply to stopping indiscriminate terror at all.

The irony is that sometimes Palestinians get blow up by their own weapons. Same thing with the IDF. Happened this last 23 days, too.

There are "claims to genuine tears and suffering" on all sides in all wars. Whose claims are more morally valid? Are anyone's? Instead of getting mired in that, why not just eliminate the suffering causing those tears in the first place?

And I have no idea how.

Boundaries disrespected must be defended against attack or they will disappear. Goes for personal boundaries, too.

So it's a matter of creating respect where there is hatred...
( 4 comments — Leave a comment )


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